Would he have been different: II.

Discussion on the works of John Keats.

Moderators: Saturn, Malia

Would he have been different: II.

Postby jfk » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:23 am

Hi all,

With all due respect to Golyadkin, I think it defeats the purpose of this forum to lock a debate (some what illinformed and ignorant in its views, but never the less, someone's views). Wether Keats was Gay or not is unlikely to be ever known. As you say, men at that time often wrote of male friends in way that would today almost certainly be misconstrued as gay. Anyway, I know that someone said in the other forum that keats wasn't getting any "pussy/ass" etc....not the most eloquent of words, but I am sure Keats himself would not react so badly to such words. Yes, they are crude and insulting to some, but they are words which a great many people in our society grew up with as being normal parts of their vocabulary. I am pretty sure that KeatsOnAcid writes these messages to get at people. If not, I apologise. I think Keats was a bit of a "himbo" or "wuss" in the conventional sense of the word, but it is completely incorrect to say that it was normal in Keats' time for men to display affection in the way he did. He was an artist of words and a man of deep emotion who knew how to express it and was given free reign to do so amongst friends. Chances are if he showed up in London today he would be laughed at by the majority. Chances are most Londoners of his time would have laughed at him if they had know who he was. Bottom line, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I think it is unwise for people in this forum to start judging people who take the time to log on and read the stuff here. If they post messages that offend people, then tough. Free speech should be the name of the game here. No one is inciting hatred....they may not like gay people, but that is their problem. Alot of people don't like Keats. They had to do his poetry at school at think of him as a "big girls blouse!. So what, who cares. I certainly don't and I am sure the man himself wouldn't have given a damn oabout the opinion of someone he didn't know or care about. Long may we enjoy this forum and the tremendous feelings it brings out in us all.

Sorry if my posting is a bit of a ramble...

J.
A beacon in the starry sky, this man so dazzling
did not fly from here in a chariot of gold,
but left our world on a melancholic wing
and fled the sorrow that makes men old.
jfk
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:22 pm

Golyadkin

Postby knight@arms » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:28 pm

Thanks for the ramble J.
I agree that freedom of speech is paramount. keatsonacid and keatsisababe are just kids being kids. I wasn't offended by them. But I am offended by censorship.
Acid and Babe wanted to get someones goat, and they did. As I see it, the kids won. We've all lost because we can no longer look forward to their breathe of fresh air, they won't get a chance to learn by interaction on this site, and we all live under the threat of the censor's knife.
Shame on Golyadkin. And shame, shame, shame on whoever complained.
knight@arms
 
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Acid and Babe are only following in his footsteps.

Postby knight@arms » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:55 pm

I believe that keatsonacid’s questions are reasonable and deserve answers. Whether Keats’ disease affected his work or whether drug use influenced his work are not unintelligent points to ponder. Even his sexual preference is not irrelevant when trying to understand the man’s work. I hope that keatsonacid and keatsisababe (or other’s like them) will be back to challenge us with more ideas and questions that unsettle scholars and other old ladies. Keats was himself a young man who challenged convention. Acid and Babe are only following in his footsteps.

* * *

Was John Keats a big wuss? No, John Keats was small. He was about five feet tall in an age when tall men were about five-foot-six. Was he weak and effeminate, i.e., a wuss? No. By the standards of his day he was little but he was rugged – until he got sick. TB weakened him physically. But it was while he was sick that he did most of his writing. Was he a “flaming homosexual”? No. He neither flamed nor did he prefer to have sex with men. Sex, when he could get it, was usually with female prostitutes. This was how he got VD.
Does any of this matter in the least? No.

“Would keat have written such deep and insightful poems if he didnt have that fatal disease?” No. TB was part of Keats’ life. It was part of who he was as he was writing. It also influenced him to write as profusely as he did because he knew from watching his mother and his brother what TB did to a person: it made them die. Being physically sick and being mentally aware that he was sick of course influenced his writing. If he hadn’t been sick would he have written as he did? Definitely not! Would he have written at all? No one can say. It’s a silly question, really. My guess is that he probably would have written but would have remained unknown.

“Would his poems be different if he was on Acid instead of Opium?” Yes. That said, there is nothing to suggest that Keats was ever “on opium.” His drug of choice seemed to have been alcohol. But, again, he wasn’t “on” alcohol when he did most of his writing. To have had a chance to use LSD he would have had to live another 150 years at least. Would a 200 year old man on acid living in the second half of the twentieth century have written different poems? I bet that, if you thought about it, you could figure that one out for yourself.
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Postby Despondence » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:47 pm

Look: this is a moderated forum, ok? Now, deal.

And frankly, I found the whole quasi-intellectual "discussion" in the previous thread patently absurd. Ad nauseam. And this new thread doesn't improve upon it much.

Sheesh already.
Despondence
 

Postby jfk » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:28 pm

If it's high minded debate you are looking for, I suggest a university with a literature department. If its free and open discussion you want, I suggest another Keats forum.

I know this forum is moderated, and I respect that. However, I believe there was merit to the other thread. Only an intellectual snob would scoff at the way things were developing.
A beacon in the starry sky, this man so dazzling
did not fly from here in a chariot of gold,
but left our world on a melancholic wing
and fled the sorrow that makes men old.
jfk
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:22 pm

Postby Despondence » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:39 pm

jfk wrote:If it's high minded debate you are looking for, I suggest a university with a literature department. If its free and open discussion you want, I suggest another Keats forum.
What are you, a straw man? This IS the Keats forum, and the quality of posts was elevated several levels as a moderator was employed and stricter posting rules applied. What are you whining about? Get over it, already.
jfk wrote:I believe there was merit to the other thread.
...then merit should know no concourse with moronity, lest either be a disgrace to the other.
jfk wrote:Only an intellectual snob would scoff at the way things were developing.
Have we met? For if not, it seems to me you have formed an opinion with little information. What makes an intellectual snob, anyway? You define it, and I'll volunteer whether I'm one or not.
Despondence
 

Postby jfk » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:14 pm

Hi Despondence,

Firstly, I want to apologise for suggesting you (or anyone else) was an intellectual snob. I think you are a serious commentator and quiet an intellectual heavyweight and that your wisdom should be taken on board by us all.

You wrote : "then merit should know no concourse with moronity, lest either be a disgrace to the other" ......I have to disagree with you. I understand your objections to the posts in that thread, but I still think it is right, fair and good that those opinions are expressed here in an incensored format.

As for my remarks about going to University Lit. Dept for "high minded debate", I still think that is, in general, the case: but not uniquely. This forum has a lot to offer, not least to the likes of me who to quote the master himelf is "straining at particles of light in the midst of a great darkness...without knowing the bearing of any one assertion of any one opinion".

Lets continue our debates, across all threads, and try to accommodate those whose opinions differ from ours.

In summary, the last thing I want to do is bring the wrath of "Despondence" upon myself. You are an elder statesman in this forum.
A beacon in the starry sky, this man so dazzling
did not fly from here in a chariot of gold,
but left our world on a melancholic wing
and fled the sorrow that makes men old.
jfk
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:22 pm

Postby Despondence » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:54 pm

Ay caramba! "Elder statesman"....sounds like I should start watering the lilies around my grave! But you doth protest too much - I'm not at all so knowlegable about these topics as my number of posts would suggest; just a happy amateur that stumbled upon this forum at an early stage.

As for the "merit...moronity" statement, that was some kind of Shakespearism... But I stand by it: if its merit is obscured by attitudes and insolence, I see no reason to give the author even the benefit of a doubt - and certainly not my time. There are too many morons around for that, and if I were to lend each of them my ear, I'd be doing nothing else. But ok, let's agree to disagree on that :)
Despondence
 

Discussions about disscusions?

Postby Saturn » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:47 pm

:( This strand has reached it's natural end, let it burn out!

Please let's not have any more debates about debates, or slanging matches about who's more anally retentive then the other (I win that contest hands down, okay!).

Let's get back to some more of what this forum's about - a bit like a university tutorial (minis the tutor) for free expression about the life and works of Keats.

Boy, is anyone else so pathetic as to be posting on a literary forum on a friday night?

I forgot, most of you guys must have actual social lives!

I've really outdone myself today....dum-dee dum dee dum. I feel like a writing a whole load of crap, but I've gone on long enough.


"I'm a loser baby / So why don't you kill me?" - Beck.

Cheerio my fellow cyber losers.
"Oh what a misery it is to have an intellect in splints".
Saturn
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