Sensation or Divination?

The life of John Keats the man: his family, his friends, and his contemporaries.

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Postby Credo Buffa » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:08 am

dks wrote:Seriously, that is one of the things I love about this forum--so much erudition and insight--and about KEATS. It's perfect.

Yeah, we are pretty spectacular 8)
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Postby Saturn » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:34 am

Credo Buffa wrote:Yeah, we are pretty spectacular 8)


If you don't mind saying so yourself :lol:

I do agree with dks though. I'm am constantly surprised, delighted and somewhat amazed that debate like this still exists in a world of cell-phones, text- messaging and 'net speak :shock:
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Postby dks » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:35 am

Saturn wrote:
Credo Buffa wrote:Yeah, we are pretty spectacular 8)


If you don't mind saying so yourself :lol:

I do agree with dks though. I'm am constantly surprised, delighted and somewhat amazed that debate like this still exists in a world of cell-phones, text- messaging and 'net speak :shock:


Oh, unfortunately for all of you, I've got many more (topics like this)where that came from... :roll: :wink: :lol:
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Postby Credo Buffa » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:37 am

Saturn wrote:I'm am constantly surprised, delighted and somewhat amazed that debate like this still exists in a world of cell-phones, text- messaging and 'net speak


NE1 wanz 2 chat Keats?!

I hate cell phones :x

Feel free to bring up any of those topics you've got brewing in your head, dks!
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Postby dks » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:45 am

Credo Buffa wrote:
Saturn wrote:I'm am constantly surprised, delighted and somewhat amazed that debate like this still exists in a world of cell-phones, text- messaging and 'net speak


NE1 wanz 2 chat Keats?!

I hate cell phones :x

Feel free to bring up any of those topics you've got brewing in your head, dks!


Here, here, Credo. I know what you mean--I don't like text messages either--too concise...

Oh, I've got another one...I'll pitch it tomorrow, as I'm feverishly working on this paper...but, since it's going on midnight--I'll probably wrap it up rather quickly, not before typing out another poem I wrote earlier today...
"I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the heart's affections and the Truth of Imagination."
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Re:

Postby Raphael » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:23 pm

Artists do work on a different level; some might say that it is a more "spiritual" level. Their goal is essentially to capture an abstract idea and interpret it in concrete terms. What could be more abstract than searching oneself and somehow extracting a sense of being fated? One would probably have to already be thinking in transcendent terms (i.e. writing poetry) to come across something like that.


I thought I'd add to this old thread as this is something that comes to my mind a lot.
I think he was on a spiritual level.

All that aside, though, it's almost impossible not to notice how closely the thoughts on death expressed in Keats's writing match the facts of his own life and death. Whether or not this is just coincidence or evidence of something deeper, we'll never really be able to know :wink


It was re reading Book One of Endymion recently that got me thinking...there is so much in it that anticipates his life to come...the journey of Endymion by boat to the Underworld ( sometimes seen in pagan mythology as a ritual death and rebirth or a quest for knowledge)- John's jouurney's by boats on his writing trips and his journey by boat to Italy.
Lines 843-857 on the themes of immortal love ( him and Fanny) and the words :

"My restless spirit could never endure
To brood so long upon one luxury,
Unless it did, though fearfully , espy
A hope beyond the shadow of a dream"


They echo what he wrote to her in his love letters.
Also lines 653-7:

"..madly did I kiss
The wooing arms which held me, and did give
My eyes at once to death: but 'twas to live,
To take in draughts of life from the gold fount
Of kind and passionate looks..."

Echoes of Ode to a Nightingale and Bright Star

And the very end of book one:


"..he rose, faint- smiling like a star
Through autumn mists, and took Peona's hand:
They stept into the boat, and launch'd from land."

Leaving for Rome in Autumn, calling Fanny his Bright Star, though he was not smiling like Endymion.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

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Re:

Postby Raphael » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:29 pm

dks wrote:Seriously, he very, very much wanted to be heard through his poetry--he never sounded much like someone who just wanted to chuck it all and delve headlong into a slight 'knowing' or resignation; especially when he fell in love with Fanny.

I'm focusing on "When I Have Fears" which was written in Jan. 1818--before the first hemmorhage--so the inevitability wasn't quite known to him yet when he composed this sonnet--also, it wasn't about Fanny--the "fair creature of an hour" he talks about is presumably the mystery woman at Vauxhaull, whom he saw for a mere few minutes--its just that the poem sounds very portentous and a bit ominous for someone who wasn't quite yet aware of his own terminal illness. I think it very interesting that he's gone down in the annals of great English poets as one who exudes a semblance of "clairvoyance." Perkins and Walter Jackson Bate both assert this--I mean, it broaches a certain something.


I noticed that right away about this sonnet dks and for what it's worth I'm totally in agreement with you on the mystical/physic/clairvoyance thing. He wrote in one his letters to George in America about communicating via the spirit.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re:

Postby Raphael » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:33 pm

dks wrote:I was just reading one of his letters to Fanny B. on the englishhistory.net site--one of his 1820 letters--they make me cry everytime...I have to run to the bathroom like a little girl and get the tissue--I sometimes can't take it...what must she have thought to have someone write things like that to her?? I would've have swooned and fainted. There is a part where he talks about Love being his religion and that is what he's die for... :( :cry: :( :cry:

He was, indeed, perfect. :cry:


I expect she was amazed that he was for real... :wink:
He was special allright!
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby Cybele » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:49 pm

You're right -- So much of what Keats wrote was indeed eerily prescient -- sometimes to the point of raising goose-bumps on the arms of yours truly. I've wondered if this was because life-expectancy was so low (young people died all the time) or because our guy had had some glimpse of the future.

Another thing I've wondered about is the connection between sex/love and death in the poems. Keats is hardly unique. (Connection of Sex & Death: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g ... ntent;col1 Alas, one doesn't have to look very far to see this "correlation" played out in a gruesome variety of ways. Then too, Sex can be a way to ensure personal immortality of sorts -- if the participants are successful at reproduction! :) )

In the poems, Death ("And so live ever, or else swoon to death." ". . .burst Joy's grape against his palate fine. . ." etc. ) is often some kind of a transcendent, spiritual thing, existing outside of normal time. Death as an End, but an end that goes on forever.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby Raphael » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:18 pm

You're right -- So much of what Keats wrote was indeed eerily prescient -- sometimes to the point of raising goose-bumps on the arms of yours truly. I've wondered if this was because life-expectancy was so low (young people died all the time) or because our guy had had some glimpse of the future.


I think because he was close to death it somehow brought an urgency to his life and what he had to achive in his 25 years, which in some mysterious way enabled him to "tap into" things( even if he wasn't fully aware of it at the time eg when writing Endymion- but I think he was aware of it).

Another thing I've wondered about is the connection between sex/love and death in the poems. Keats is hardly unique. (Connection of Sex & Death: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g ... ntent;col1 Alas, one doesn't have to look very far to see this "correlation" played out in a gruesome variety of ways. Then too, Sex can be a way to ensure personal immortality of sorts -- if the participants are successful at reproduction! :) )



Thanks for the article- ah if only Fanny had had a little Keats....


In the poems, Death ("And so live ever, or else swoon to death." ". . .burst Joy's grape against his palate fine. . ." etc. ) is often some kind of a transcendent, spiritual thing, existing outside of normal time.



I actually believe it is just that. And some of the quantum physics stuffs shows time is not what we think it is. :wink:

Death as an End, but an end that goes on forever.


The cycle of birth- death- rebirth.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby moonflower » Mon May 17, 2010 10:00 pm

I think that the creativity he tapped into when he wrote was part of a larger sense, a ubiquitous nature... divination makes sense... because it would have been unavoidable as he communed with that larger entity....
I think if you delve deep enough into the subconcious you can reach that ability and perhaps it was more open to him.....and it probably has something to do with the time period around Halloween, so ridden with spirits.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby Raphael » Tue May 18, 2010 3:36 pm

moonflower wrote:I think that the creativity he tapped into when he wrote was part of a larger sense, a ubiquitous nature... divination makes sense... because it would have been unavoidable as he communed with that larger entity....
I think if you delve deep enough into the subconcious you can reach that ability and perhaps it was more open to him.....and it probably has something to do with the time period around Halloween, so ridden with spirits.



Hallowee'n comes from Samhain the old Celtic festival when the veils betwen dimensions are said to be thinner, allowing for the ancestors/dead to communicate with the living.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby moonflower » Wed May 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Yes that makes sense, Halloween is my favorite. I can always feel the thinning of dimensions. And I don't very much like how Halloween is cheapened by pop culture, at least where I live. It has become rather commercialized.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby Raphael » Thu May 20, 2010 1:21 am

moonflower wrote:Yes that makes sense, Halloween is my favorite. I can always feel the thinning of dimensions. And I don't very much like how Halloween is cheapened by pop culture, at least where I live. It has become rather commercialized.


Same here- shops are full of plastic rubbish that will end up in a landfill- so that's what descendants will inherit- land full of plastic- goes against what Samhain is about. Years back people would play bob apple, carve a turnip ( but eat what was taken from the inside), children would make things out of cardboard etc.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Sensation or Divination?

Postby moonflower » Thu May 20, 2010 3:14 pm

its ironic that a holiday focused on spirits is so materialistic.
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