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[Cornelius]

It'sthe question, if this would have rescured him. The tb-immunisation is not 100 % effective and has got some risks - because of this in germany only old aged, pregnants and children get this vaccination, when they live in an area with tb-risks. But today the tb-infection isn't as dangerous, as in his time.

I wondered, if he could be rescured, when he had visit italy earlier.

Strange conversation, I think.

[Raphael]

It'sthe question, if this would have rescured him. The tb-immunisation is not 100 % effective and has got some risks - because of this in germany only old aged, pregnants and children get this vaccination, when they live in an area with tb-risks. But today the tb-infection isn't as dangerous, as in his time.

The immunisation works if given in childhood.Compulsory immunisation here stopped in the early 1990s- not sure why.
It is as dangerous as it ever was- just that today there are antibiotics. But it has to be caught early enough- even today John would not have been able to have been saved by September 1820- the disease was too advanced.
There is the problem now of strains of the disease being resistent to antiobiotics.I read in a magazine here about a woman who had TB today in modern Britain- a few months ago it was. Nobody knew how she contracted it. It took while before the doctors found that she had TB- she had been going to the doctor because she felt unwell.It was in one lung and she had the lung removed but the disease has left her weak and she is disabled now and needs an oxygen tank.

I wondered, if he could be rescured, when he had visit italy earlier.

Sadly not...nobody back then could survive TB- everyone eventually died from it. Certain herbs could help one, but only antibiotics kill the TB bacteria.

[Cornelius]

I know a nurse, who is weak since her tb-infection, too. Tb is a disease which steals into the body - thats right and makes it more dangerouse than others. There are articles about Tutenchamun (I'm not quite sure, but I think he was it) with the tb-bacterias in his corps.

I didn't know fact with the vaccination in childhood until yet, thanks.

Mh - maybe the tubercle would be encysted, when he had left the cold and wet climate earlier and his body has got the chance to regain it's strength - thats it, what I think about. The Chance is small, but maybe this could have happened.

[Raphael]

I know a nurse, who is weak since her tb-infection, too. Tb is a disease which steals into the body - thats right and makes it more dangerouse than others. There are articles about Tutenchamun (I'm not quite sure, but I think he was it) with the tb-bacterias in his corps.

I will have to read about Tutankhamun- didn't know he had this disease too. I hope the nurse you know will regain her strength.

Mh - maybe the tubercle would be encysted, when he had left the cold and wet climate earlier and his body has got the chance to regain it's strength - thats it, what I think about. The Chance is small, but maybe this could have happened

Nothing would stops the onslaught of TB but antibiotics- I'm so sad to say it but John Keats had no chance of surviving this disease whatever he did. Maybe he could have strengthened himself by keeping warm, eating lots of energy building food, lots of vitamin rich foods, taken herbs to improve his immune system etc but it would only have slowed the onslaught down a little. Once people caught this disease before antibiotics it was impossible to survive it.

[Ennis]

All of this is so true, eating properly, medicating properly (as far as one could back then), but the whole starvation and blood-letting business is nothing short of torture. When an individual coughs up blood, for gosh sakes, it's certainly not the stomach or the mind that's the problem. Keats's three (or more) doctors were doing the best they could, I suppose, considering the time (in history) and the knowledge they didn't have.

[Raphael]

All of this is so true, eating properly, medicating properly (as far as one could back then), but the whole starvation and blood-letting business is nothing short of torture.

The doctors back then really thought that letting out blood and starving him would "keep him low" , as in check his fever, when what they should have done was given him plenty of vitamin rich fruits and vegetables- especially C. He should have also been given immune boosting herbs (perhaps in the forms of teas), rested and had herbal poultices to ease his chest. In addition, herbal cough syrups to ease the coughing and soothe the throat. My herbal books are full of herbs that they could have given him. A village wise woman would have been more help to him than the established doctors.
He wouldn't sadly have been cured, but would have had much more comfort and ease from these than what the doctors did for him. Garlic and Echinacea are superb immune boosters. He could also have had olive leaf as it is natural antibiotic- particuarly good for tooth infections- I know because it cured mine much to the surprise of my dentist. Digitalis from Foxglove also could have helped his heart palpitations- poisonous I know, but the herb wives knew the tiny amounts to give.

When an individual coughs up blood, for gosh sakes, it's certainly not the stomach or the mind that's the problem. Keats's three (or more) doctors were doing the best they could, I suppose, considering the time (in history) and the knowledge they didn't have.

They probably knew deep down that the disease was in his lungs but told him it was in his mind in an attempt to keep him calm.

Here are some links that might be of interest:

http://www.all4naturalhealth.com/treatm ... losis.html

http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/na ... ulosis.asp

http://www.drbass.com/diseases/tuberculosis.html

[Ennis]

Keats wasn't a stupid man; he may have been medically trained, but he was raised in the country by his "granny-good." Surely, he knew of these herbal remedies (or comforts, I guess, depending . . . ). Why didn't he "help" himself (other than the "sneak" sips of laudanum - if that really a help. Eased the mind, I suppose, but that may be it). Maybe he wanted to die . . . ? Maybe it was ordained that he suffer . . .

[Raphael]

Keats wasn't a stupid man; he may have been medically trained, but he was raised in the country by his "granny-good." Surely, he knew of these herbal remedies (or comforts, I guess, depending . . . ). Why didn't he "help" himself (other than the "sneak" sips of laudanum - if that really a help. Eased the mind, I suppose, but that may be it). Maybe he wanted to die . . . ? Maybe it was ordained that he suffer . . .

Indeed- John was extremely intelligent. His grandmother wasn't a country woman as far as we know. I'm meaning the old women from little country villages who had the herb knowledge passed down from generations. It does puzzle me why the doctors were not learning about herbal remedies and using them- it doesn't seem they were prescribing John anything but Mercury and Laudanum. Culpeper's herbal book had been published in the 1600's and he knew against the dangers and ineffectiveness of blood letting:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Culpeper

In answer as to why John didn't use herbs- he probably hadn't been taught about them at Guy's. I don't believe he was "ordained to suffer" or that he wanted to die.

[Ennis]

Raphael -

I don't either, really. Just being melodramatic. I'm pretty sure he didn't want to die -- maybe near the end, he did. The other comment: well, for me, it's just the easiest way for me to accept the tragedy of his dying (how prolonged and suffering it was) and his death. He was a gift to us, for all time, so why did he need to suffer the pain and the heartbreak? I know in the "Vale of Soul-Making" letter to George he writes of how necessary a world of pain is to make a soul, how the heart must "feel and suffer in a thousand diverse ways." But I still find it very difficult at times to get my mind around it all.

[Raphael]

I don't either, really. Just being melodramatic. I'm pretty sure he didn't want to die -- maybe near the end, he did.

Only when the physical suffering was so unbearable he wanted to pass on- so he wouldn't be suffering the ravages of consumption. But really what he would have liked was to have recovered, married Fanny and gone on with his poetry.

The other comment: well, for me, it's just the easiest way for me to accept the tragedy of his dying (how prolonged and suffering it was) and his death. He was a gift to us, for all time, so why did he need to suffer the pain and the heartbreak?

He was indeed a gift Ennis- I think of him that way too- his poems touch my heart in a way no other poet can.

I know in the "Vale of Soul-Making" letter to George he writes of how necessary a world of pain is to make a soul, how the heart must "feel and suffer in a thousand diverse ways." But I still find it very difficult at times to get my mind around it all.

He was trying to understand what suffering was for, why it occurred. One could also look at Negative Capability and go on from his premise (Vale of Soul Making) that in the physical condition- being human ( but also animals suffer remember) on this Earth the suffering has reasons and then move towards Negative Capability and see it that there is the Mystery. No reason for suffering- it is by default of being in the phsycial state, that our nerve cells and bodily systems both enable us to feel both pleasure and pain. Those finger tips that stroke a lover's face and bring pleasure, also can be burnt in a fire and bring pain. Two sides of the same coin. It is something I have pondered upon the last few years and just before I read John's letters and Negative Capability, Vale of soul Making etc I came to the conclusion that there is no reason- it just is.

[Ennis]

Raphael --

I know it just IS, but sometimes, I want MORE, don't you? Is it ever just enough to accept that it just IS!?! Keats means so much to me: the man, the letters, the poetry that I sometimes can't understand it all: the tragedy of his young life, the ill-fated love, the lack of success of his poetry (or so he thought), the almost-lonely death, the emotional despair he had to have felt in Rome - away from Fanny and his friends and his only family left. I need to understand sometimes (when i allow myself to dwell on this) WHY it happened? It can't be just because it IS or WAs!?! Is that our way of coming to terms with the tragedy and the unbearable sadness of it all. If ever there was a movie made of his entire life, i don't think I could bear to sit through it, although I would.

[Raphael]

Raphael --

I know it just IS, but sometimes, I want MORE, don't you? Is it ever just enough to accept that it just IS!?!

Well...... I know there is more...there is the Mystery..but I think we cannot fully know it in this life.

Keats means so much to me

Me too , Ennis, me too.

the man, the letters, the poetry that I sometimes can't understand it all: the tragedy of his young life, the ill-fated love, the lack of success of his poetry (or so he thought), the almost-lonely death, the emotional despair he had to have felt in Rome - away from Fanny and his friends and his only family left. I need to understand sometimes (when i allow myself to dwell on this) WHY it happened? It can't be just because it IS or WAs!?!

Yes, I think it just was..otherwise we are going down the route of it was his karma, his fate, ordained by the gods and so on.. those explanations don't cut it with me. I've explored them all...

Is that our way of coming to terms with the tragedy and the unbearable sadness of it all.

It works for me Ennis.Nothing or no- one to "blame", it just happened. But remember that he did have some happy times in his life also- it wasn't all tragedy.

[Fides]

Hi everyone, I was so excited upon finding this forum that I had to sign up for an account right away! Soo I guess I should introduce myself. My name is Faith, I'm 22 and going to be a senior in college (took a year off, so I'm a year behind), where I am an English and Fashion Design major. My love of Keats began this past semester, actually, while I was taking a British Lit survey course and read some of his poems for class. I couldn't get enough of him. I have never before read poetry that moved me in such a way as his did during that first reading, and continues to do whenever I peruse his collection of poetry.

Hobbies include reading, writing, and designing/sewing clothes. I also like to draw and paint, although I haven't painted in a while and it makes me sad; I suppose I just haven't been very inspired lately. My favorite authors are Mark Twain and Charles Dickens.

[Raphael]

Hi everyone, I was so excited upon finding this forum that I had to sign up for an account right away! Soo I guess I should introduce myself. My name is Faith, I'm 22 and going to be a senior in college (took a year off, so I'm a year behind), where I am an English and Fashion Design major.

Welcome Faith!

My love of Keats began this past semester, actually, while I was taking a British Lit survey course and read some of his poems for class. I couldn't get enough of him. I have never before read poetry that moved me in such a way as his did during that first reading, and continues to do whenever I peruse his collection of poetry.

Oh I know exactly what you mean- John Keats has written the most moving poetry ever! I cannto get enough of him either. Have you read his letters?

Hobbies include reading, writing, and designing/sewing clothes.

I really wish I had the talent for designing and sewing clothes- but I cannot sew for toffee! I keep looking for evening classes teaching sewing but not found any yet. I don't like the fashions and have ideas in my head of what I'd like to wear but couldn't do it by myself.

I also like to draw and paint, although I haven't painted in a while and it makes me sad; I suppose I just haven't been very inspired lately. My favorite authors are Mark Twain and Charles Dickens.

I used to draw...I plan to do a drawing of John and Fanny when my eczema clears up. It is great to have you on board- feel free to join any current discussions- or old ones!

[harvest]

i feel like i should say another quick hello ~ had a few busy months, but this forum was always close @ heart.

~ nicole