Political

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Political

Postby Raphael » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:19 am

NOTE - This topic began as a student query and was gradually derailed and I had to lock the topic so I've split the end of that topic and merged it with [banned member]' one if anyone wishes to continue the debate.

Saturn.


Saturn wrote:
Malia wrote:Sometimes not voting is actually a "vote". In the 2000 election, I voted for the third party candidate (Ralph Nader) as a kind of "objection" to the two main candidates. All that did was drag votes away from the Democratic candidate and give more fuel to the person I absolutely did *not* want in office--George W. Bush. :roll:



Well In a Presidential election where there are only two or three candidates, voting for one or the other does make a difference and not voting for the forerunners as you say can have a real effect, but in a British general election which is what Raphael and I are talking about we can't choose the leaders of the parties in that way.

Democracy is flawed, of course it is, but the alternative is much, much worse. Plato's Republic even, that ideal some people hold up as a perfect state has far too much in common with Nazi Germany than you'd think.

Philosopher kings aren't coming our way any day soon, until then we're stuck with fallible human beings, not saints - people expect too much of politicians so are always going to be disappointed but for Pete's sake don't give up on democracy or the enemies of freedom will really be in charge then we're all screwed.


True democracy doesn't exist- just variations of it- when a law is passed the people have no say in it- a true democracy would mean the country votes- that doesn't happen. The politicans decide for us.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Political

Postby Saturn » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:29 am

Well total democracy would mean everyone voting on every issue no matter how small, and that's never going to happen, and besides how much do you understand and know about the budget deficit, inflation or any number of complicated pieces of legislation, I sure as hell know nothing about them at all, and have no opinion on things I don't have enough knowledge of. Do we really want issues decided on like people decide on reality TV shows? :roll:


The technology probably exists for everyone to vote on every issue but how many would, or could vote on issues which most of us know nothing about.

What we have is an elective democracy, in which we vote in politicians to represent our views in the national assembly or parliament. These politicians are advised and assisted in understanding and implementing their legislating by the civil service.

I say again it's not perfect, never will be, but what is your alternative?
"Oh what a misery it is to have an intellect in splints".
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Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:56 am

"Well total democracy would mean everyone voting on every issue no matter how small, and that's never going to happen, and besides how much do you understand and know about the budget deficit, inflation or any number of complicated pieces of legislation, I sure as hell know nothing about them at all, and have no opinion on things I don't have enough knowledge of. Do we really want issues decided on like people decide on reality TV shows? :roll: "



Certainly not reality TV shows!
But big issues should involve the people- but of course they keep many people ignorant by their lies and media manipulation.




"The technology probably exists for everyone to vote on every issue but how many would, or could vote on issues which most of us know nothing about."


I wouldn't be so sure about that- they keep info hidden and like it that way. People have minds and can use them if given the truth.


"I say again it's not perfect, never will be, but what is your alternative? "


Big civilisations fail in the end because the numbers are too great to "manage"- we were meant to live in small self governing tribes. From studying anthropology it showed that any number of people over 150 means a select few controlling the population.
Perfectability...I doubt it... :wink:
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Political

Postby Saturn » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:17 am

How would you decide which issues should be voted upon though?

How big an issue does it have to be for everyone to vote?

Unless some major disaster happens and we're forced to recreate society anew we're not going to go back to living in that kind of society, that's not a realistic viable alternative in today's world.

Hey it would be great to go back to a simpler time, but it's not going to happen, and you know that, we have to seek solutions for the system we have now, not revert to the society our ancestors lived in because unfortunately unless the world ends tomorrow and our whole civilization goes belly up nobody's going to be doing that.

You're an idealist Raphael I admire that, I am too but we need practical solutions to the apathy and inertia of people to the political process and just throwing your hands and saying they're all bastards and I hate them all and burying your head in the sand surely can only makes matters worse.

I'm clearing getting nowhere with this one and we've strayed way off topic here.
"Oh what a misery it is to have an intellect in splints".
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Re: Political II

Postby Saturn » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:58 am

[banned member] wrote:Very democratically handled Saturn. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, eh?



I have no idea what you're implying there.
"Oh what a misery it is to have an intellect in splints".
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Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:24 pm

I rather miss Lord Sutch. :lol:
LOL the party is still going!

http://www.omrlp.com/
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:43 pm

I wish I had found this for Miranda yesterday:



I remember his first introduction to Mr. Hunt, and the pleasure each seemed to derive from the interview. I remember with admiration all that Gentleman's friendship and disinterestedness towards him--disinterestedness which would surprise those only who do not know him. I remember, too, his first introduction to Mr. Haydon; and when in the course of conversation that great artist asked him, "if he did not love his country," how the blood rushed to his cheeks and the tears to his eyes, at his energetic reply. His love of freedom was ardent and grand. He once said, that if he should live a few years, he would go over to South America, and write a Poem on Liberty, and now he lies in the land where liberty once flourished, and where it is regenerating.

By it seems C C Clarke

http://englishhistory.net/keats/describe.html#5
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Re: Political

Postby Miranda » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:57 am

Thanks everyone!!!! Just to let you know I ended up getting 90% on my paper!!!! THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!!

I look forward to reading more of Keats work and hopefully keatsing up to you guys!! lol
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Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:02 pm

Miranda wrote:Thanks everyone!!!! Just to let you know I ended up getting 90% on my paper!!!! THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!!

I look forward to reading more of Keats work and hopefully keatsing up to you guys!! lol


Well done Miranda! Oh yes, please do keep coming and sharing Keatsian moments with us.. :D
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Raphael
Milton
 
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Location: wandering Keats' poetry

Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:04 pm

[banned member] wrote:I liked especially Shelley's words from Volume 2 of "New Spirit of the Age". This is a very good find indeed and has forced me to read 'Ozymandias' for the first time in donkey's years. If we don't allow ourselves to become derailed by endless biographical speculation it's quite easy for someone who isn't overjoyed with 'Shelley the man' to amend his opinion of him - and I'm talking personally. He was a great poet. 'Ozymandias' is very relevant at this time of political prima donnas.


Shelley was an ok bloke I think- he had his faults like all of us, but he meant well a lot of the time. I will have to read more of his work- not read much of it. What's considered his best?
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Raphael
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Location: wandering Keats' poetry

Re: Political

Postby Saturn » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:01 pm

Where to start...

Here's a Shelley primer of essential works:

Dramas - The Cenci, Prometheus Unbound, Hellas

The Mask Of Anarchy

Adonais of course

Julian and Maddalo

Alastor

Mutability

Mont Blanc

Hymn to intellectual Beauty

Lines written among the Euganean Hills

Ode to the West wind

To a skylark

Letter to Maria Gisborne

Epipsychidion

With a guitar to Jane

PROSE

A defence of poetry

A philosophical view on Reform

Translation of Plato's Symposium

Essay on Christianity

On Love

On Life

The Necessity of Atheism
"Oh what a misery it is to have an intellect in splints".
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Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:44 pm

That's quite a list Saturn- thanks for taking the time to post it- I shall have a look at them over the coming weeks!
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
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Raphael
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Location: wandering Keats' poetry

Re: Political

Postby Raphael » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:35 pm

edited
Last edited by Raphael on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
User avatar
Raphael
Milton
 
Posts: 1845
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Location: wandering Keats' poetry

Re: Kybalion

Postby Raphael » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:09 pm

edited
John....you did not live to see-
who we are because of what you left,
what it is we are in what we make of you.

Peter Sanson, 1995.
User avatar
Raphael
Milton
 
Posts: 1845
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Location: wandering Keats' poetry


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